[ShyShy]

"Everyone else is doing it" is a bit of a stretch. But, strategic allies of the US allow openly gay and lesbian military personnel to serve and the majority conclude that it is not an issue. ( article link: http://www.msnbc.msn...news-military// )

I would like to hear what others think, especially those who have served in the military (US or other countries). To me, I think that while there would be some bumps, the ban should be repealed. When you've got the Israeli army recognizing gay partners and even providing benefits to them, it makes you wonder why the US has it's head so far stuck up it's own ass that it won't see the light.

[Payneos Maxamaian]

You know, I sat and thought about it and realized there's more to it than just "ripping the band-aid" off.

I have no problem with anyone under the LBGT banner. But at the same time, a lot of people brought up in more traditional households around the country (Read: The Heartland, the South, and the Midwest) are... less forgiving currently when it comes to those under the LBGT flag. To the point where they may be violently hostile towards those who are open about said things. It's a lot like why the Marines in particular won't take you if you have certain tattoos that are construed as symbolizing a gang. The Military is there to operate as a well-oiled team focused on one goal. The mission. I'd love to live in a world where such thought could take place regardless of sexual orientation, we're not quite there yet. It takes time, just like the introduction of mixed races to the ranks.

The majority of our allies may conclude that it might not be a problem in *their* military because their cultures are more tolerant, even accepting of "alternate lifestyles." Sadly, a majority of our nation has yet to come that far. But I am hopeful. This generation is... more apathetic toward how other people are socially and more concerned with how they feel internally.

[SammytheMc]

Payneos Maxamaian, on Jul 13 2009, 02:23 AM, said:

It takes time, just like the introduction of mixed races to the ranks.

Getting to be about that time, I think. The movement in our country towards gay rights has been getting stronger and stronger; like you said, it's pretty much a generational issue that most of our generation (ie military aged males) has gotten over.

People don't necessarily construct institutions in their image; much of the time it's quite the opposite, like in Brown vs. Board of Ed. It's been proven time and again that the best cure for prejudice is exposure. Even if a person is a homophobe or a racist, much of the time they'll excuse the gays or blacks they've gotten to know and respect as being "one of the good ones" and be able to function just fine, especially when those people are working towards the same goals for the same reasons. Sometimes people just need a kick in the ass to get over that initial hump. If they are undisciplined and undedicated enough to be stuck on the fact that maybe the guy sitting next to you in your foxhole likes to give blowjobs on his days off, GTFO of the military.

Not to nitpiche difference between disallowing gang members and disallowing gays is pretty monumental. Gang members often have violent criminal pasts, and probably have a lot of psychological issues. The rate of PTSD in South Central LA is higher than that of the kids in post-invasion Baghdad. Granted, I've never met any gangbangers, so maybe this is a little bit of my own prejudice seeping in, but it seems to me that there's a pretty huge gap between "we don't want to take you because you might have dual loyalties and steal our guns or already be batshit" and "we don't want to take you because some of our more culturally backwards members might think you're icky."

Not only is DADT based on an anachronistic mindset, it strategically hurts our country. We have a recruitment problem, and we're actively telling a section of our population that if they want to be open about who they are they cannot join. That to me is just ridiculous, and again, I would frankly rather have the patriotic gays in the military than the people who aren't patriotic enough to get over their homophobia. There are a bunch of gays in the military already, and I think the feelings of those soldiers should be taken into account as well. How well-oiled can a machine be when the whole of the machine makes it clear that some component parts are unwanted?

[sttaffy]

when I was in there was a gay dude or two in my battalion, and even though no-one asked and no-one told everybody knew anyway. I never caught a hint of homophobia except from one dude, and he was the exact type sammy mentioned, having gotten over it and adjusted and accepted the gay member as 'one of the good ones.'

It's about damn time, and the same with other human rights and social constructs that gays shouldn't be barred from at all. Marriage and spousal bennies and everything else. It kind of makes me a little sick to my stomach to see how far we've come, all the way to allowing and repealing rights to marriage, to be just at like 95% of where we need to be.

The generational turnoverwill take care of it, I think - a lot of the 20 somethings on down are going to be much less closed minded. I'd like to see everything, including an open military, codified tomorrow - but with the awful people we have making our laws now I don't know if it's possible. Maybe we just need the next generation of awful legislators, who just happen to be more socially liberal and a little less backward.

A note: it would be helpful to remember that bias against gays or in favor of tradition, depending on who's asking, can quite easily be the product of cultural indoctrination and not of actual bigotry. My mom is one of the most open minded people in the world and loves everybody but she can't quite make that tiny mental switchover to acceptance of gay marriage. For her it's a traditional thing and not an issue of equality or bias. She'd be on what I think of as the trailing edge of the older generation. I don't mean to turn this into a gay marriage debate but I just thought that would be a useful analogy.

[Ido2havegoats]

I am the only non Veteran to sit on the US Veterans Artists Alliance board of directors and this has been a hot topic recently.

Dont ask dont tell is bad and needs to be eliminated.

that is all

[cooky560]

The US isn't allowing Gay Marriage either, where many other countries are, the US is just a bit traditional in that way.

This post has been edited by cooky560: 11 August 2009 - 02:27 PM

[baafie_]

One of my coworkers was a professional soldier, who mentioned that one of his colleagues was gay, although not entirely openly. He mentioned that another colleague felt uncomfortable at first, but after spending a while on duty together he learned that the gay guy was just one of the guys... and the girls. My collegue mentioned there were never any problems.

Of course, if you permit women to serve in the military, it would be rather silly to discriminate against homosexual men and women.

This post has been edited by baafie_: 11 August 2009 - 08:29 PM